LetLetLet ~ Warplanes
Let Let Let - Warplanes => Warplane Art => Topic started by: No.1 on January 13, 2006, 11:12:10 PM
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Let's begin with the color profile. First at all i have to note that could not do this if you are not common with the picture editor control. In this way this is the Adobe Photoshop, version CS2, by my personal opinion the best software for the picture editing.
Our target will be to produce color profile of the Messerschmitt Bf109E flown by Kurt Wolf from the JG52. What we need is the basic technical drawing and the photo of the subject. Drawings I have scan from the "Model Art" special edition Bf109E. Scan have to be 300 dpi and as larger as possible- I use A3 size in landscape orientation. Format is TIFF. I do not use PSD as well it is much large and there is no need for this. Photoshop memory many of data including of your actions and this give larger file. In this reason I use TIFF form and click on field LZW for the compression. This will extra reduce size of the image but this will still be capable for the high quality professional print.
Drawings must to be clean in the outline and the area out of the basic shape and this need some time to prepare before the start of the initial work. Prepared drawing then select. You can do this with regular selection tools but also with pen which is most precision and versatile tool in CS2. Fastest way to select is to choose Magic Wand tool and to click in the area out of the plane shape. All outer area will be then selected. You should then press Ctrl shift i and selection will be inverted and the airplane body will be selected. Around the plane body will be noted selection which is called "marching ants". See it on the picture number 1.
Note- best way is Pen tool for selection and you have tips explained here http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/forum/index.php?topic=253.msg10751#msg10751
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Now we come on the imortant point of the work- layer creation. Work with layer's are of the basic importance. New layer is simple to add, just press ctrl shift N and layer window will appeared on the screen. First give the name of the layer, in this sample "Blue" and leave all of the rest details as they are. Press OK and you have created first layer in which you will apply first base coat of the illustration, RLM76 color. You will note that selection stay on the same position but now is in the new active layer named "Blue".
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Now we are on the next important step in this guide- choosing of color. This could be done by very simple metod- click on the color square on the lower part of the tool menu on the left side and picker color window will appear. Yuo can take a sample color by direct picking in the field but most precise way is ifyou have an info of the color and it's RGB value. Input this value in the field shaded in light blue. You can see RGB alue I have put for the German RLM 76 color. Note also in the right uper corner that we have not new layer for blue color and it is noted by blue color which mean that this is active layer.
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Take a airbrush in your hand... in your mouse and place the first color layer. Airbrush could be taken from shortcut Alt-Shift-P and be sure that it is in normal mode, Opacity 100% and Flow 100%. You can use also Paintbucket tool but better to use airbrush and train your hand skill.
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On the layer panel change Opacity of the blue layer and put it on some 90%. This will help ypu to see panel on the background drawing and this will help you to precise apply next color. And the next color on this color profile is RLM 75. Make a new layer and name it ... Mid grey. Layer will apeared in the layer panel in the top. Choose from the color picker correct color and start with coloring. Use enlargement to close up details. See the details of painting of the spots on the vertical tail. Shortcut for enlarging and minimizing of the image is Ctrl-+ or Ctrl--
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And at least third camouflage color to be added- RLM 74. Create new color and name it Dark grey [or how do you like]. Select new color and spray on the top surface whre this color have to be. Note that selection is allway placed in the active layer you have create. This selection still have to be there.
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Plane had now it's basic camouflage pattern in rough form. This sample had in the time of the operation special washable pale yellow areas on the nose and vertical rudder. So new layer is created for this and name is Yellow. Selection is still keep in place. To help our view for a short time make Mid grey and dark grey layers invisible. Simly click on the eye icon in the layer field and this layer is here but invisible. So take color and airbrush and ready for the special area markings.
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Triming is the step where will be precisely determinated covering area of the color. First to be trimed will be yellow color. For a while make this color layer invisible. Now all the panel could be seen and corect path could be made. yellow is applyed on the engine covling and on the fuselage up to the windscreen. On the rear side only vertical rudder is covered with yellow. Take a pen tool, shortcut i P on the keyboard, and make a path. When you make a path then you right click and from drop down menu choose "Mkae selection". In the new selection dialog box click on "Substract from Selection" and result will be cliped basic selection we had.
Now have to inverse selection as well treated are is out of the basic selection and this could be done by pressing Ctrl-Shift-I . Now take eraser, shortcut E, and erase area of excede yellow color. This is a secunde job and then deselect your image by clicking Ctrl-D. New selection have to be made to clear wing. Make selection on the wing shape. Get back all layers visible and then trip it all of them on the wing.
Color profile now had it's shape.
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Small detail on the nose... make a new layer for the red color and then select the spiner. Paint it all red. Then make new layer for white color. Divide the selection and remove half of selection. This could be done with poligonal laso tool, and hold the Alt and this area will be removed. paint it in white.
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All paint are now in place. Now we have to give a nationality to the plane and he is pure German combat plane. Making of insignia, badges and similar graphic should be for sure part of other topic. I will just explain here what to do with allready made markings. First to apply should be basic German insignia. Opet it from source on disc, shortcut Ctrl-O. This graphic will appeared in the new window in Photoshop and now take Direct selection tool, short cut V, and simply drag it into the main illustration. Move it until you find it's best and most accurate position. Using this metod I have place side cross, swastika and underwing cross on the color profile.
In this profile entering of number present some problem. I did not found match even in my 2000 instaled fonts in my PC. So I have enter most similar, rasterize it and then reshape it to get closest possible look. And the result is white 15 on the fuselage sides. Nose emblem is not a problem, I have made it much before and I have just open it, drag in main artwork and resize and place in correct position.
On the screenshoot could be seen how all of this markings look on the real plane. I have make on grey color's to make it invisible as well now coming the most important step in whole this story- sfumato!!!
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It's party time!!! This we have seen until now could be called anyhow but not the color illustration. Let's bring it into the real appearance.
What we need is the number of panel lines, nuts and bolts, hinge, access panel's, opening, blisters and many other thing which will give visual reality. There is a number of hard and soft object to be placed there. Hard object are:
- panel lines
- intake holes
- nuts
- bolts
- canopy glass
And the soft object is the various hightlight and shadow which illuminate each part of the plane and givig it a dimension of present object.
For the creating of the hard object use brush tool, not the airbrush, and take 3 pixel round. Opacity have to be 100 %. Color black. This is the usual tool to create all of the panels. Closed object like some holes or door, access panel is better to make first selection of the shape and then go to Edit-Stroke and take stroke path. In this manner are made all of the bolts and the nuts. Now it is the time to think about the source of light! In this color profile light is coming from front left top side. In regards to the direction of this light you should create arround the all of the hard object hightlights and shadows which give realistic visual appearance.
Now the come most important object- soft object. To create this you shold select a shape by shape on the plane and make a number of shadow and higntlights. For this purpose use airbrush tool and the opacilty should be very small. Shadow you reate with black color and opacity ranging from 9 % up to 16 % [data based on personal experience] and the hinghtlights are created with white color and double less opacity. Take a maximum care about the direction of light. One more detail- some area like the underwing are more in deep shadow and need more to be darken but some sharper and rounded parts have to be more hinghtlight. You have to practice more to learn this but also to study real obkect and to notice "game of light" on it's body.
After hard work take back all layers visible and see what did you get. Don't forget about the small details, they give important influence in the visualiation of the illustration. See for excample how the extra details are add to the tail, extra shadow under the horizontal tail and the fabric covering detail on the rudder.
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Aircraft is very clead, shiny and tidy machine. Yes, but only in moment when it's leave paint and finishing facility in the aircraft factory. After testing plane is delivering to the operational unit. Under permanent stress panels are not as tight as they was, color bleeding under sun light, mechanic walk on plane, surface is detoriating, fitings and connections begin to leak, oil, fuel and various of other liquid's... in short word it's areal life. So let's bring life on illustration.
This is most interesting part of artwork. Simply you select part to part of the plane and paint something what present gas exhaust, damaged color, dirt and so on. I gues what- you need new layer for this. Used color are grey brown with various shades, ranging from pale to dark. But take attntion about the brush- it is airbrush but in Dissolve mode and opacity range from 40 % up to 70 %. Place color stroke arond the edges. let there be dark color. Then use Smoodge tool, R from keyboard and find under pallete, and distrort the stroke to create leaks in the direction of flight. Then take again brush, take very light color and apply on the edge of the panel. Then take Blur tool and take blur on the whole section.
And this have to be done for the each part of the plane. Somewhere you will put gun blast traces, but somewhere just damaged paint. see the how the paint could be damaged on the cockpit canopy.
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And what now? Go to the Layer with blue color and put it back on the 100 % opacity. Then go to the Layer panel and will se on the lower side Flatten image... press this and your illustration is finished. And now the size is much reduced.
Result is on the bottom. Hope you like it and that this short guide could help you in your own creation atempts.
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Nice tutorial! Thought, a fair warning to everybody, it's in practice criminal to use line drawings from publications etc. in profiles without permission.
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True but if you make any of changes on the same drawing this is not violation of law. This is as you could seen a pretty different then the original- so no violation here. More to say that it is not a problem to make drawing by own but matter of question is how the accurate they could be.
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True but if you make any of changes on the same drawing this is not violation of law. This is as you could seen a pretty different then the original- so no violation here. More to say that it is not a problem to make drawing by own but matter of question is how the accurate they could be.
One could se things like that, but the true is the line drawing is 50 % from the finished work... As I have made few pretty high-quality drawings I know much work is involved to it. And after that it isn't nice when somebody just copies it to his profile work.
Mangrove
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I have made couple of them and published. They became base for all the further drawings and color profile. If you thinnk that your work could be abused- don't publish it. Idea is not to keep but to share al of the knowledge for the mutual benefit. I was put many thing on my web site too and no crime was afected- even more I was allway's asked for the rights to use this materioal.
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Idea is not to keep but to share al of the knowledge for the mutual benefit.
I agreed with you, but the point is to make clear to the viewers the base of the profile (line drawings etc.) ins't yours but made by somebody else. I'm not afraid to publish anything, but I would like people to know that the base of the great color profile they have seen somewhere is based to my drawings, wouldn't you?
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This conversation is gone deep out of this topic!
As I know it is not in behavior of the illustrator to provide basic info about the source drawing for it'c color profiles. The same color profile fr it self present completely new work, no matter of the base. I could said for this color profile here that it is based on my drawings and data is supplyed from the flight manual of Bf109E where the factory drawings were published. No problem to find photos of this plane for details.
When you publish your material all info provided is then public. It is recomended to any author to provide the references for it's work. I personaly do that. But I could talk only in my name, not in the name of others. If you trace my articles published in various magazines you could not that I provide references for all I do- from base material for scale drawing up to the references for color profiles. It is because I want to feed up reader with complete info.
Things are different when you supply unpublished material. Then you could be in position to place terms of use.
Find out more info at some of the Authors right Agency.
I would like to ask you to close this way of conversation and be more on the same method of art creating.
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Ne razumijem ove likove koji se pojavljuju na forumima i patetično se pozivaju na neke stvari a mislim da ej sve u cilju kako bi pojedinci imali monopol na sve što misle da je njihovo bogomdano pravo. Neznam je li gospodin mangrove razumije srpski jezik, ali vrlo uljudno bih ga zamolio neka pogleda sav sijaset tehničkih crteža koji se mogu naći na netu. Recimo na www.airwar.ru tamo ima masa crteža koji se svrsishodno mogu iskoristiti za izradu inih kolornih profila. Većina tih crteža objavljivana je u pojedinim časopisima ili knjigama ali jdno noraju imati na umu onog momenta kad se to objavi na internetu to postaje "opće dobro". Dakle ovde je stvar po meni bar prilično jasna.
Ne vidim razloga zašto se ne bi viče ljudi uputilo u tajne kreiranja ovakvih kolornih profila jer mislim da bi time cijela naša "populacija" bila bogatija. Ja lično ne bih imao ništa protiv toga da ako ja ikada uradim kakav dobar crtež ili profil taj isti neko drugi iskoristi kako bi unaprijedio svoje vještine.
Usput pohvalio bih tutorial i rekao bih da se nadam da će ih biti još. I mislim da me No1 nije shvatio prije par dana ja Photoshop poznajem poprilično dobro (btw. radim prijelom jedne novine i jako mi je neophodan) i u tutorialu koji je napisan isuviše jednostavno štošta mi je pojašnnjeno. Imat ću par pitanja ako si raspoložen da mi odgovoriš na njih.
Smeta me i što tutorial (iako govorim engleski savršeno) nije napisan i na srpskom.
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Eh dragi moj... ja sam moderator na jednom forumu sa 100 hiljada korisnika, posla preko glave, dnevno bacim nekoliko tema, pa jos licne obaveze, pa narudzbine za inostranstvo... stvarno nemam vremena da napisem i na nasem jeziku. Zao mi je ali tako je.
Prelom stampe i priprema grafike zastampu je skroz druga prica ali daje coveku bitnu osnovu da moze da razume neke stvari. Tako ja nisam piaso npr. da treba cesto da se snima, precica Ctrl-S, i slicne stvari jer racunam da to vec treba da se zna.
Da ne gnjavim mnogo pitaj sta god treba, tu sam.
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Ma sve ok! Kad stignes odgovaraj nije hića. Naime bavim se ja radom u photoshopu i nije mi nimalo stran hajde reimo neka bolja sredina. Inače radim u QuarkXpressu i InDesignu i jako su dobri za moj posao dakle DTP i to rasturam :-). Sve ono sto si u tutorialu napisao radi ko vekerica jedino mi je podosta nejasno poglavlje oko panela i sjenčenja. Naime kod iscrtavanja panela zanima me na kom layeru treba da iscrtavam panel (da li na prvom ili da kreiram novi layer) i 3 pixela mi se čini poprilično debelo bar na mom crtežu. Daje možda je glupo pitane treba li posebne layere za sjene i osvjetljenja. to je ono što me interesuje za sad. Koliko god glupa pitanja bila znam da te pilam ali zaista bih volio savladati ovo sve imam u planu raditi profile upravo pokušavam uraditi ME 109 E3 jkrv Milutina Grozdanovića pa ako mi uspije postavit ću ga koliko god bude kvalitetan. Hvala.
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Senke su u posebnom sloju, zakovice u posebnom, kopce u posebnom i paneli u posebnom. Kad ih sve zavrsis onda iskljucis sve slojeve osim njih i onda pritisnes Ctrl-Shift-E i od njih napravis jedan sloj. tri piksela nije mnogo ako ti je profil lovca dug jedno 400 milimetara.
Inace batali Kvark, mislim da ga je kupio Adobe i In Dizajn postaje vodeci za grafiku i prelom. Doduse Pejdz mejker ce se jos boriti al pitanje kolko dugo.
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Da ovo za Quark si u pravu i mogu ti reći da InDesign ima čitav niz naprednijih i moćnijih alatki i opcija te mi je jako koristan pri izradi naslovne stranice za moje novine. Međutim Quark mi daje mogužnost rada i na slabijim mašinama koje prevladavaju iako ja imam ljudoždera od kompjutera. No da te ne davim time.
Probat ću kući ovo što si mi napisao da vidim kako će da reaguje HVALA!
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Allow me to participate in this small school of Photoshop :-red? Well, there is one very usefull command (in my humble opinion) when working with selections - Save selection in Select meny. When you make selection, with this command you can save it and use it every time you need it, no matter in what layer you are currently working. After two weeks of work on profile or something alse you may find some details unsatisfying. Will you try to select same detail again? No, just Load selection from Select menu and - voila, there it is. It also saves size of the file since adding many layers increase it very fast and then working in Photoshop becomes waiting for Photoshop. Try and experiment - you'll see.
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Let’s see some advanced method of the panels on the airplane art. In the previous post is described how to make this panels and this is dedicated to the persons with no skill at all in the aviation art but as I said basic level in the Photoshop is necessary.
One of the most important tools is Pen. We call it from the keyboard by pressing of P. There are few Pen tools but we need Pen tool, not Free Pen tool. When we get it some panels are changed and in the top panel we now see option for this tool. Watch at the left arrow- it is pointed on this panel. You will see three small marks for Pen tool work regime. We have pointed and selected the middle of them by click on it. This work regime create path which we will use. Left of this create vector path and automatically create new layer. On the right side is regime where path stay in the same layer where we work but the path is filling with color. To repeat- we need regime which is in the middle icon. Then we are creating paths which are in the same position and shape as the panels on the actual object. Making of path is easy- click on one side and finish it on the other side.
There is show strait but also curved shape can be made. It is important to create a bulk of path but you will be faced with problem- active paths. When you make one path which present panel on airplane you will have to make another and problem is that this panel is not connected with previous. Photoshop does not know how the panel looks on the airplane and next point you make will be connected with previous, from panel before. How to stop this? Simply- when you make one panel and want to make another one you have just to move Pen cursor some out side and hold ctrl and left click on the canvas field. Path you have just created is deselected. You will see just some tiny lines, and you will make the rest of the paths. Important- when you make the last panel then you again repeat deselecting method.
And did I have to tell you that you get to have separate layer for panels only?
Before you go into the making panel creating stoke you have to make some preparation with brushes. Take brush but this has to be airbrush. Brush gives to sharp edges and this does not look very real. In the airbrush the edge of stroke is soft and this looks much better.
Set the opacity 100%, color must be black and diameter not larger then 4 pixels... this depend to the actual size of your art.
If the brush is set you have to take again your pen tool and make solution with right click. When you make right click you will get drop down menu and from this menu you have to choose option Stroke Path. Then you will get the panel as you see on image 2. What you have to do is to take Brush tool and you take it from drop down menu. By default there is Pencil tool [I never use it BTW]. Also note small label down on the left side- Simulate Pressure.
This will make that your path disappear at the end point and this you don’t need. If you have set all as see on this image then click OK. Panels are created. There is possibility to make additional adjustment on this layer where panel lines are. To do this just simply looks at the bottom of the Layer panel. Second from left is the icon which indicates Layer Style. You have to note that Layer Style and Layer Behavior are not the same. So click on the Style icon and see the drop down menu. In this case we will take Outer Glow. Outer Glow is very important method of indicate the shape and dynamics of the panels and must say that menu artist use it in not just proper way. Why? I noted that many of them use black or very dark grey to spread around the panels and this is basic omission.
The same panels are on the real airplane plates of metal or another hard material and their edges have a highlight and this is oppose from the dark as you know. The same panels we are drawing actually do not exist- this is just a gap between two panels. So when working panels try to note this.
On the last image is the Outer Glow panel which jumps in front of us and maybe scare some of us. When I have seen it first time, some three years ago I have click on cancel, turn of Photoshop and feel very desperate. But it is so easy. Follow these steps and enjoy.
Take attention just on the fields indicate with red ellipse, the rest you will learn later... a lot of experiment you have to do. First thing you have to change is the color. This is the second mark on image. Click on it and you will see panel with color. Choose white color. Click OK and return to this panel again. Now watch up- Opacity. By default it is 75% and I have reduced this, in this sample 45%. This will see changes on the image you are working in the moment. Also reduce size of the Outer Glow and I have taken it from 5 pixels to the 4.
In the Quality section you have to take shape of this glow. Click on it and try it- I use default but maybe some other will better fit what you are doing. And last thing you have to set is to reduce range of the glow.
As final result this will be array of panels with soft outer glow in lighter color.
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Continue the story about the panels. Problem begins when we introduce shadows and highlight in our art. This is coming in separate layer and above all of the previous layers. This is in a reason that it has to give influence to the previous layers as well with layer with panels. But then will happen something we don't want- panels will get shadows too and they could not have it. This is gap hole and it is dark. So there is more work to make it more realistic.
So back into the Panel layer and click on it to become active. Then right click on it and take option Duplicate layer. This will make new layer, identical to the original. This copy of layer clicks and pulls it above the layer with shadows. One thing you don't need any more is the layer Style. When layer have style you will see this in the layer filed and this is indicate on image 3. Take click on this layer and drag it to the Trash been at the bottom right corner of the Layer panel.
If you have done all of this you will still has not very realistic panels. This is because they are too visible and now there have to be reduced their visibility. Set top panel layer 40% [as you see on image 4] and the lower, which is under shadow, on 80%. This value varies and this is just instant suggestion.
In general you have now created panel lines with their full intensity. But more work still has to be done.
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Final work belongs to the stroke over the panel edges. This will give closer impression to the light fall over the surface and better denote shape and structure. First you have to know from where is light coming. Then in regards to this you can make these highlights.
First create new layer and call it... see the image. This layer coming over last panel lines layer, never under!!! Make paths in very close distance to the panels and then make stroke path. For stroke path use brush, size 1-3 pixels, opacity 15% and color is white.
Final result is down there ;)
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The same situation is with the bolts. There is two layers. Image present more live version of the art with bolts added. And the final image is just to test your imagination... final technique to finish this is the method used to paint grass, plants, hair... and this is the most important stage of your art- imagination and feeling :-wise
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very interesting tecnique :-obey :-clap :-wave
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Wait- you did not do like this?
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yes I make pannel like you, but not the white line around the pannel...
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Fabric covering is typical for the early stage in aviation construction. There is few methods how to make this on the color profile and I will describe her two of them.
In first method use the Paint Bucket tool and choose regime of pattern. I hope that you have enough of pattern in your library and some good pattern are stone, fabric, noise, sand, textile... So take any of them and pour over the selected area. Selected are is complete new layer just for the fabric covering and this have to be under the layer with shadows.
Image two present the result of what we have get and this is more blurred with Gaussian Blur, set on one or two pixels. Now set the Behavior of layer on Multiply and opacity not over the 30%.
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Second method is with airbrush. Take some medium grey color and set brush regime as Dissolve and Opacity not over the 30%. Spray over the selected area.
Then go to the layer panel and set Layer Style as Beveal & Emboss, Layer Behavior as Multiply and opacity low, I set it on 11%. You can use Blur as in the previous method.
Last image is the final result of the previous technique... but in a reason of compression this fabric is not notable as on my screen. But for sure it look nice in publication print- I have do that.
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Working on the color profiles of the natural metal finished airplanes is the different world. As well the final realistic appearance in the camouflaged airplanes art is realized by the only one layer, layer with shadows, in the metal airplane finishes we have even three layers important for this effects.
First image show structure of one metal color profile. First indicated layer is Shadows [sorry all inscriptions are in Serbian] then follow by the Metal shine, Basic metal color and basic drawings.
In the second image Shadow layer is turn off and now you can see better how the art look like.
Third image now feature two important layers turned off- Shadow layer and Metal shine layer. You see now dominating layer with basic metal color.
Fourth image is the most important at all as well it described full interaction of the basic drawings in working of metal shine art. In the camouflaged type or art this layer is need just for first time when we make sharp definition of the aircraft shape and paint it. We do this with Pen tool as well
Pen tool give precise vector selection. But in this section we use most stupid tool- Magic wand. In difference with Pen toll, Magic wand select areas of similar colors. We can also expand and reduce range of this color which would be selected.
Why use of this as well it is know that magic wand is not precise and gives teething shaped selection? Reason is simple- this work very fast and selected areas cover inside of the art, no need to determine precise shape. Also we need some irregulars as well we know that metal effects are not precise but include many of variation in its appearance.
Image 4. show that we are work in the background layer where is drawing. You have to know that working layer is indicated by blue color [more about the selection will be made in the topic "Speed road to Photoshop"]. When we took magic wand, shortcut is w on keyboard; we click inside of the panels. To select more panels we have to hold Shift- you will then note small + mark on the wand icon.
What area to be selected? Very important!!! You select just area of specific shadows- so we select in this way only fuselage. Group of selective areas for the selections are as follows:
- fuselage
- engine cowling
- wings fillets
- wings
- horizontal tail
- miscellaneous details [in this subject this could be undercarriage housing]
This approach would give you precise control of the type of metal illumination we are working on. As you can see on the first image metal shine is not the same on the fuselage, wings...
When you are make this selection you then turn on all layers which are turn off and go to work in- layer with Metal shine. This one will give to you what you want from the final metal effect.
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Nice free plug in, styles, gradients, brushes...
http://www.freephotoshop.com/html/free_brushes.html
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To be honest I haven't see that any try to explain how the marking under the wings are bent and curved to follow the under surface contour. Here it is one very simple method in Photoshop.
Go to Filter and choose Liquify. It will take some time until in new window open. Liquify is the filter which enable you to free distort your object or part of it. So the same tool you could see in the left top corner and icon look like finger press into something. This tool is chosen by default. Now see the parameters on the Tool Options on the right side. First set brush size in regard to the size of object you want to shape. I keep brush density at 50 as well it is good. Brush pressure is 100 and Mode is chosen from drop down menu as Smooth.
When you set all of this all you have to do is to put brush over the object, left click and hold and pull into the desired direction. It works :-wave
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http://www.tlai.com/
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Here you are steps how to make very important brush for making rivets on profiles.
:-ok
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What if we have some specific shape what we need on profile like the some access panel for example? There is good way to make it from two different paths. First image show how to make two path. I have made one rectangular with rounded corners and one round. Both are of the same height and aligned. next I have do is i have select both with path selection tool, shortcut is a on keyboard, and then on the tool panel I have click on Combine. Result is the new shape, and exactly what I need for profile.
:-wch